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Post by jenny on Aug 11, 2024 19:47:09 GMT
And yet, there has been no comment on the transgender boxer at the Olympics? I think that depends who you read and where you read it... You might be interested in this article, by a sports writer with a very good reputation (TV and journalism). Of course both these boxers could immediately settle all such questions by releasing the results of the tests carried out on behalf of the IBA. This would allow everybody to assess the quality of the testing as well as the results. The IBA cannot release those results publicly because it is private medical information (right now the IOC claims that information about your biological sex is private medical information which I think is news to most of us). And yet the boxers refuse to do so, which begs the question about why that is so. Personally I think that women's sports as a category becomes meaningless if biological males are allowed into it. See for example Lauren Hubbard, who at the age of 43 won a women's weightlifting gold medal in 2020. See also Lia Thomas, who went from being a mediocre male swimmer ranked somewhere around 420th in the world to smashing women's records. It's not that all men are always going to beat all women - there is an overlap between the best performing women and the worst performing men - but there is an undeniable biological advantage to any man who has been through male puberty taking part in a sport against biological females. As far as I can tell the two boxers are males with a DSD that caused them to be identified as female until they hit puberty when they would have failed to menstruate despite having what would appear externally to be a vagina. I can well believe that in rural Algeria where Khelif comes from such a condition would be unlikely to be identified early, as it wasn't with Caster Semenya and the other athletes mentioned in the article I linked. |
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Post by barbados on Aug 11, 2024 20:31:45 GMT
And yet, there has been no comment on the transgender boxer at the Olympics? I think that depends who you read and where you read it... You might be interested in this article, by a sports writer with a very good reputation (TV and journalism). A very interesting article, however the the author makes no mention of the real transgender boxer in the olympics. Both Khelif and Lin are not female by choice, they are female as a result of a chromozone disorder. They have always been female, from birth just like you. It isn't through choice. |
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Post by barbados on Aug 12, 2024 5:48:00 GMT
I’d also like to counter the report provided with This one. It isn’t by a sports writer, it’s be a science writer, as with the sports writer, I have no idea who she is, however the BBC seem to think she is worthy, so who am I to argue. it looks at the genetic makeup and highlights the fact that it isn’t as simple as XX & XY, because while all XX are female, not all XY are male. and, while looking at the eligibility of Lin and Khelif as black and white, are you happy to vilify the woman who at 33 discovered that the reason she can’t have children is because she’s actually a man? it finishes by saying |
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Post by jenny on Aug 12, 2024 14:31:13 GMT
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Post by jenny on Aug 12, 2024 14:32:51 GMT
I think that depends who you read and where you read it... You might be interested in this article, by a sports writer with a very good reputation (TV and journalism). A very interesting article, however the the author makes no mention of the real transgender boxer in the olympics. Both Khelif and Lin are not female by choice, they are female as a result of a chromozone disorder. They have always been female, from birth just like you. It isn't through choice. That's because that boxer is a transgender man who is competing where she should be competing - in the women's category, having kept her testosterone within female range and not having been through male puberty and developed male biological advantges. I would have no problem with Khelif or Lin competing in the male category. |
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Post by barbados on Aug 12, 2024 14:41:56 GMT
Are you able to share when Lin and Khelif change their gender, because since birth they have been female.
As noted in the scientific (rather than sports) report it really is not as simple as the sports reports are claiming, there are so many things to take into consideration when it comes to gender.
And if it as simple as XX, XY as suggested- why was Hergie Bacyadan boxing in the 75kg men’s class?
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Post by jenny on Aug 12, 2024 18:11:02 GMT
It may not be as simple as XY but sex is still binary regardless of DSDs. Sex, as determined at conception, endows a body with the ability to make gametes that are either small and motile (sperm) or large and immotile (eggs). Unless you know differently, I believe there is no record of anybody possessing the ability to produce both types of gamete.
The bodies that make these gametes are endowed with a hormonal profile associated with the production of these gametes. That hormonal structure influences the development of the body and endows the possessors of the small motile gametes with certain biological advantages in sports over the possessors of the large immotile gametes. Women's sports were segregated from men's sports for precisely that reason. When you allow the producers of small motile gametes (even if those are through internal testes as is the case with people like Caster Semenya and probably Khelif) to enter women's sports, you erase women as a category.
Khelif was undoubtedly brought up as a female and identified as such on his birth certificate. The absence of external male genitalia and the possession of something that looks from the outside like a vagina would have been sufficient (as it would be in many other countries). It is not uncommon for this to be the case until the absence of menarche and the development of male-hormone-influenced musculature and skeletal development begins to happen during the mid-teens. That does not make him female. Khelif's coach knows that he is not female In an exclusive interview with Le Point magazine, he confirmed that the Algerian has a male karyotype and high testosterone. Moreover, the post-match photograph of Khelif riding on the coach's shoulders is something that simply would not happen in a conservative Islamic country between a woman and an unrelated man.
There are times when sex is irrelevant. Those times include things like mode of dress, use of make up and nail varnish, length of hair, choice of name, choice of pronoun, choice of partner with whom to have consensual adult sex, and non-competitive sport played for fun.
There are times when sex matters. Those times include situations such as competitive sports where biological women and girls cannot fairly compete with the greater strength of men. They also include situations where women and girls are vulnerable to the predatory instincts of some men (and I know NAMALT but the fact remains that an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.) Unfortunately the predatory ones don't come with identification marks, so it is reasonable to expect that there are spaces where no males, however they identify, should be allowed.
Hergie Bacyadan is a transman so therefore a biological woman, who competed in the women's boxing category. He is reported by nine.com.au to have opined that athletes born with XY chromosomes should not compete in the women's category. I have no problem with him. His stance is an appropriate one. I would equally have no problem with Khelif or Lin if they had competed in the male category.
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Post by barbados on Aug 12, 2024 18:36:57 GMT
The article I linked to goes some way to explain why it isn't binary.
But what is telling, is in your second paragraph above, where you say
(even if those are through internal testes as is the case with people like Caster Semenya and probably Khelif)
Just read that back, slowly. People like Caster Semenya and probably Khelif - probably, you don't know, no one knows, and they don't know because the details of the tests that disqualified her from the world championships are not clear. They said they tested at a chromosome level, not hormone. Then when they were told that you can't tell with any certainty, from chromosome testing, they replied by saying that the test was a hormone one. It's why the Russian backed IBA are no longer recognised as the authority in Olympic boxing, because they are not reliable. It's also telling that Angela Carini was paid by the IBA after her first round defeat, when she withdrew because her opponent was Faster, Higher, Stronger.
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Post by jenny on Aug 12, 2024 18:43:41 GMT
Please cite to me any occurence you know of where a person has produced both sperm and eggs. Sex is both binary and immutable, regardless of DSDs. Caster Semenya has fathered children with sperm extracted from his internal testes, which he knows and is on record as saying that he has, though of course he identifies as a woman and, like Khelif, was brought up as female. I think you have not read the account of someone I linked to earlier who is a reputable writer with everything to lose by lying about this who claims to have seen the tests and gives an account of them. www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq Do you think males should be allowed to box against females? Do you think there is any situation where sex rather than identity is important? |
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Post by barbados on Aug 12, 2024 19:29:38 GMT
Please cite to me any occurence you know of where a person has produced both sperm and eggs. Sex is both binary and immutable, regardless of DSDs. Caster Semenya has fathered children with sperm extracted from his internal testes, which he knows and is on record as saying that he has, though of course he identifies as a woman and, like Khelif, was brought up as female. I think you have not read the account of someone I linked to earlier who is a reputable writer with everything to lose by lying about this who claims to have seen the tests and gives an account of them. www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq Do you think males should be allowed to box against females? Do you think there is any situation where sex rather than identity is important? I, like you, do not have a full understanding of this particular subject. I don't use terms like "Khelif" probably has testes for example because I am not a scientist, and the article I did cite pointed out that it actually is quite a complicated subject. Caster Semenya may well have fathered children, has Khelif or Lin? I don't know, do you know? I don't think you do because you did say Khelif only "probably" had testes? I've seen no evidence either way. I did read your article. As I asked, if the criteria was XX chromosone, why does Hergie Bacyadan with XX chromosomes fight in the mens competition? It is because the harder punch comes from testosterone, not chromosome. Did you read the article that I linked, that gives a scientific explanation, not one from a sporting point of view. With the matter at hand, I'd suggest the science article trumps the sports article, you are free to disagree, but science is built on fact (at the time of writing), sports journalism is built on opinion As for the tough questions at the end, do I think men should box women? No, but I also think that women should not box women and men should not box men. But I was always told that males and females are equal, I don't actually believe that to be the case, I think males are superior in some sports, and females are superior in others. But if sex is more important than identity, then Hergie Bacyadan would be fighting in the women's competition not the men's. |
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Post by jenny on Aug 13, 2024 20:37:07 GMT
Why do you keep saying that about Hergie Bacyadan? Hergie Bacyadan is a transman so therefore a biological woman, and as such he competed in the women's 75kg boxing category against the (female) Chinese boxer Li Quan. Hergie is reported by nine.com.au to have opined that athletes born with XY chromosomes should not compete in the women's category. I have no problem with him. His stance is an appropriate one. I would equally have no problem with Khelif or Lin if they had competed in the male category.
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